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  1. #1
    New Prospect 2012RKclassic's Avatar

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    yes then no, yes then no, do i have to re-tune or not ??????

    i need to pipe in and and get this settled here i guess, because i trust the answers on here. i have a road king classic, i just bought some catless headers from wild pig's on ebay in an exchange for my pipes for a 50.00 credit back. anyway, i'm keeping it simple and staying away from any of the tuners, dyno's, re-this, re-that, that stuff wraps up into hundreds and hundreds of dollars sometimes so i'm staying away from it. just so you know i have done no other mod's to it. i'm told it's fine to just use my stock filter as well, which leads to my question ? i have had 2 people tell me it would be a smart cheap investment to replace my stock filter (just the filter) and put in a drop in K&N. they said it would just help give the exhaust a little better performance and flow, and no re-tune would be necessary. sure enough i can get one on ebay for less than $60.00. i'm more than willing to stick one of those in, but just recently i also had 2 different other people tell me that it would still need a re-tune even with just a drop in K&N. i don't have a lot of knowledge on tuners, dyno's and stuff, but what i have learned is you don't have to spend tons of money to pump up your exhaust. so exhaust experts, please tell me i don't need a re-tune by just dropping in a K&N filter ? if i have to re-tune, i'll probably just keep my stock filter in, but what's a re-tune consist of anyway ? and what's it cost to have it done ? just curious ? thanks for the help....

  2. #2
    Iron Butt smitty901's Avatar

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    Pulling the CATs really opens up the exhaust flow that alone would mean adding some fuel would be the best path. Doing that and a free Ac would lean you out.
    You don't have to go nuts with it broke anyone of many middle for the road add on fuel managers you can easily install your self will do the job.
    A stock replacement KN does not effect the flow but the freer flowing KN does.
    The why is this EPA mandates HD lean them out. So they come stock pretty lean. They are also only allowed so much room on the stock ECM to compensate .
    When you free up the exhaust and intake it will lean it oput more and all the wishful thinking in the world will not change that.
    No doubt some get away with it for awhile but in the end the damage will show up.
    The infantry leads the wayClick here to enlarge

  3. #3
    Moderator / Sergeant at Arms clutchglass's Avatar

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    In my opinion it's not something you want to go part way on. The pipes were a good choice.....you obviously wanted a performance increase....you are talking freer flowing air filter.....so you should realize you are leaning out an already (EPA mandated) too lean engine....now ask yourself this.......Since you have dumped this much cash into owning an HD, isn't it a smart call to ensure your motor isn't going to burn up? No matter what we, or the guys on the block say....if you lean out your big $$$$ motor even more and don't richen it up some....you will have to live with the wonder on who/ what was right....or (worse case) fry your scooter.
    -clutch-



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  4. #4
    PatchHolder midnight reign's Avatar

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    2012RKC, The way I see it is you have basicly 2 options here. you can find a mechanic that you feel you can trust, and go with what ever he advises, or you can put in a bunch of time doing some research and educating yourself on the mods you want to make. Smitty is correct in the reply to your question for the most part. Although as far as I know ALL K&N air filters flow more freely than stock filters. I could be wrong on this, but that is one of thier main advertising points.

    So as we discussed earlier, if you change both the air intake AND exhaust you have basicly done what is commonly referred to a Stage 1 upgrade, and chances are better than not you WILL have to compensate in the tuning one way or another.

    When you do the Stage 1 what you are doing is allowing the motor to "breath" better, what that means is you are allowing the motor to pass a higher volume of air through it. All motors are basicly air pumps, and the more air you allow it to move the more work it can do, or to put it another way the more air that passes through a motor the more power it makes. That is why really high performance motors often use blowers, or turbo chargers. What those devices do is force more air through the motor, and by extension the motors make more power.

    One of the most critical elements to engine tuning is the Air/Fuel ratio, or AFR. Getting the most power and economy out of your motor is dependent in large part to this AFR. Generally speaking, you get more power and economy with a leaner mixture ( lean, means a greater amount of air and lesser amount of fuel than the stock configuration) BUT a leaner mixture runs hotter, and this is where the problems begin to occur. If the mixture is too lean/hot you WILL do severe damage to the motor. Maybe not right away but the damage will occur.

    The motor in your bike uses the Engine Control Module or ECM to, among other things regulate the AFR. And as Smitty said in his reply the EPA has put constraints on the amount of flexibilty the ECM is allowed to compensate for. This is done to keep the emissions of the vehicle within federal guidelines.

    Now, the ECM can be manipulated beyond those guide lines by various means, but this can be time consuming, complicated and expensive. all things you have stated a desire to avoid.

    All that being said, there may be a "chance" you can get away with putting a K&N air filter in it along with your freer flowing head pipes (congrats on getting them BTW) but I'm guessing you just spent over $20k on this bike, so you have to ask yourself how much chance do you want to take with it?

    OK class dismissed...
    Last edited by midnight reign; 07-19-2012 at 09:52 PM. Reason: omissions

  5. #5
    CHARTER MEMBER Jaystronghawk's Avatar

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    Simply put .. Increase Air Flow without Increasing Fuel is Going to Lean the Mixture causing Heat .. Just taking the restrictions out of the Exhaust Increases Air Flow ..
    Click here to enlarge 2012 Victory Cross Country

  6. #6
    New Prospect 2012RKclassic's Avatar

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by midnight reign Click here to enlarge
    2012RKC, The way I see it is you have basicly 2 options here. you can find a mechanic that you feel you can trust, and go with what ever he advises, or you can put in a bunch of time doing some research and educating yourself on the mods you want to make. Smitty is correct in the reply to your question for the most part. Although as far as I know ALL K&N air filters flow more freely than stock filters. I could be wrong on this, but that is one of thier main advertising points.

    So as we discussed earlier, if you change both the air intake AND exhaust you have basicly done what is commonly referred to a Stage 1 upgrade, and chances are better than not you WILL have to compensate in the tuning one way or another.

    When you do the Stage 1 what you are doing is allowing the motor to "breath" better, what that means is you are allowing the motor to pass a higher volume of air through it. All motors are basicly air pumps, and the more air you allow it to move the more work it can do, or to put it another way the more air that passes through a motor the more power it makes. That is why really high performance motors often use blowers, or turbo chargers. What those devices do is force more air through the motor, and by extension the motors make more power.

    One of the most critical elements to engine tuning is the Air/Fuel ratio, or AFR. Getting the most power and economy out of your motor is dependent in large part to this AFR. Generally speaking, you get more power and economy with a leaner mixture ( lean, means a greater amount of air and lesser amount of fuel than the stock configuration) BUT a leaner mixture runs hotter, and this is where the problems begin to occur. If the mixture is too lean/hot you WILL do severe damage to the motor. Maybe not right away but the damage will occur.

    The motor in your bike uses the Engine Control Module or ECM to, among other things regulate the AFR. And as Smitty said in his reply the EPA has put constraints on the amount of flexibilty the ECM is allowed to compensate for. This is done to keep the emissions of the vehicle within federal guidelines.

    Now, the ECM can be manipulated beyond those guide lines by various means, but this can be time consuming, complicated and expensive. all things you have stated a desire to avoid.

    All that being said, there may be a "chance" you can get away with putting a K&N air filter in it along with your freer flowing head pipes (congrats on getting them BTW) but I'm guessing you just spent over $20k on this bike, so you have to ask yourself how much chance do you want to take with it?

    OK class dismissed...
    well i went from pumped to depressed, i'm a novise at this and after reading all 3 threads, have no idea what i should do , just detail it and simply tell me the very very cheapest way to secure the bike ? if it's a filter, tell me the exact one, re-tune, add fuel ? have no idea about that stuff and here i am right in the thick of it where i didn't want to be. i'm no wrench is my problem, you guy's i'm sure do all your work yourself, well we get into tuners, and upgraded filters, the freakin stealership will charge me 8,000.00 to tune the darn thing. i don't want to take that chance at all, i agree with all of you on that, i just thought positive on the k&n, then 55 more dollars and i'm done with it. just disappointed that more money is going to go into this and i'm at my limit on the exhaust. so tell me what to do or get, the bare minimum to get the job done right please ? and please please please, don't tell me to go to my stealership. they have robbed this white boy on labor charges already and ive only had it a month and a half....

  7. #7
    CHARTER MEMBER Jaystronghawk's Avatar

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    Try reading this and may find yourself a little more at ease .. I used the XIED's for 3 months on my 2008 Electra Glide Standard and they do help keep your AFR in line .. If Finances are tight this is the most economical way to keep from being too lean basically they are jumper wires with a built in resistor to fool the ECM to supply more fuel .. Very easy to install .. I ended up going with a Power commander later on .. But these did work but is not for performance is just for a better AFR on your Ride ..



    http://www.nightrider.com/parts/
    Click here to enlarge 2012 Victory Cross Country

  8. #8
    PatchHolder midnight reign's Avatar

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    Now Now, dont get depressed........ Keep it simple put your new head pipes on, leave your stock filter in. The stock air filter is more restricive than the K&N's so in my opinion you shouldnt be overly leaning the fuel mix. The motor will breath a bit better by freeing up the exhaust with your new head pipes and slip ons, but the stock air filter is only going to flow so much air.

    In the first thread when you initially asked about doing this someone replyed that they lived close to you and was willing to give you a hand, perhaps you should avail yourself of that offer.

    Another suggestion I would make is locate a few different shops in your area, and go check them out, talk to the people that run them and work there, find yourself a shop or mechanic you get along with, someone you like and feel you can trust, build a relationship with them.

    You are going to have a couple of services that come up pretty quick with a new bike and you dont want to neglect them. Yes the dealer can do them for you but like everything else at the dealers it can be expensive. So unless you are going to invest in tools and educating yourself you are going to need a trustworthy mechanic. and the sooner you find one the more you will save.

    Find the local bike nights in your area, like Hooters or the local watering holes, talk to the people there ask about the local shops, get involved in your local motorcycling community. Just keep in mind you are'nt gonna hit it off with everyone you run in to. Relax, be yourself and have fun with it.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Sergeant at Arms clutchglass's Avatar

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    If the power commander V I had on my 09 ultra will fit...I'm going to mail it in the morning to him. He will only need to buy new O2 terminators from fuel motto for $30.
    -clutch-
    PS Just passing forward the good nature jay showed me...he is letting me have his old pipes!!!

    Update: I just checked the 2010 -2012 PCV installation instructions set on fuel motto's web site. It looks to me like you just unplug the O2 sensors...and don't even use terminators. If I'm seeing this right, he won't need to buy them...provided the PCV off my 09 ultra is the same one he needs. It's after business hours at fuel motto, and I don't see part #s on the web site. Anybody got an idea if my 09 ultra PCV is the same as the one for his 2012 RK?

    -clutch-
    "The enemy has us surrounded again...those poor bastards!" -Gen Creighton Abrams-

  10. #10
    New Prospect rubyeb's Avatar

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    I understand ECM controlling the AFR, and I understand that there are programming limits. My first question is are there any drivability issues right now. The second question is what do the plugs look like? My brothers and sisters would never get a bike back from a shop with the wrong plugs, torque spec and certainly not mis-matched plugs with one hand tight like I did on my dr650.

    My last question for the group is what kind of an exhaust gas analyser do you use? Blanke series 1500 fuel analyzer appears to be on the list.

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